I decided to find a video about gun control. I found a
report on some of the effects of gun control in Australia such as an increased
crime rate, I did not want to use my UMN email address so I created the handle Donut82. I started off my comment by stating a simple, neutral, and
logic opinion that surmised as I do not believe an all-out weapons ban would
work in the U.S. however, I believe things could be changed such as closing the
gun show loophole and asking if it is really that inconvenient to have a rapid
background check completed if you were to purchase a firearm. Shortly after
Sugergrover6868 commented, claiming something like yes it is all the
"rednecks" fault. Please read the comments because then hilarity
ensured.
Regardless of what I said or whatever argument I made backed up with evidence this Sugergrover6868 would go off onto some sort of tangent about the liberals, the government, and even minorities. I picked and chose what to respond to but when I did i backed it up with evidence and links to news articles. It seemed this person was just talking to talk and because I engaged back that just gave this individual more reason to respond. While these individuals arguments were scattered and not backed by evidence, I feel my counter claims and arguments were backed with evidence and presented a cleared picture of the situation without being a "troll".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyS3CEIbpJo&feature=youtu.be
Regardless of what I said or whatever argument I made backed up with evidence this Sugergrover6868 would go off onto some sort of tangent about the liberals, the government, and even minorities. I picked and chose what to respond to but when I did i backed it up with evidence and links to news articles. It seemed this person was just talking to talk and because I engaged back that just gave this individual more reason to respond. While these individuals arguments were scattered and not backed by evidence, I feel my counter claims and arguments were backed with evidence and presented a cleared picture of the situation without being a "troll".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyS3CEIbpJo&feature=youtu.be
While I
do not believe an outright firearms ban would ever work in the United States,
certainly something does need to be done about criminals and the mentally ill
having easy access to firearms. Would it really be that inconvenient to close
the gun show loophole?
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There
is no loophole. The old "Its all Redneck's fault". Rivers of drugs
flow into this nation but its jethro and a gun show that supplies gangs in
Oakland, Chicago and DC? That's just the most asinine thing ever.
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+supergrover6868 The majority of the
sellers at gun shows are licensed FFL dealers and are not private sellers. Is
it that much of an inconvenience to do have a station that runs rapid
background checks if one would intend to purchase firearm at a gun show?
Especially if that would keep a firearm out of the hands of a convicted felon
or someone who has been certified mentally ill? Is that 10 min background check
not worth that? This is a good read (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html and
"The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get
guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun
dealers." Do you think anyone should have easy and instant access to
firearms?
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1
They
all get background checks. That media lie only has validity to those obsessed
with control of others and destruction of liberty. There really is no good
reason for any of it. we have tens of thousands of ineffective and
illegal "laws" on the matter already not one has stopped
anything.
I dont see allot of these ignorant perceptions t home in Germany but some Germans that feel the need to blame America for every little thing do have them. Other nations though are just are bigoted and seething with hatred for 300 million Americans they really know very little about. You'd we would have learned to shed such prejudices.
The only logical explanation for foreign perceptions on this or most other American matters I can see, is that nations government and/or media is enabling prejudices that already did exist in these nations, but should have been eradicated long ago.
As far "Insane" people, they are health care problem not a gun problem. A very difficult balance must be struck of properly caring for them while preserving their rights as humans as well. The political climate in America is so poor that any laws coming from politicians are going to only cause more problems. Politics is so divisive and so poisoned with corruption in American it may be that the only solution is to split the two opposing sides into their own nation. Yes it really is that bad
Today some foolish people think we know far more then we really do about the human brain. The reality is some people go insane at the drop of a hat and nobody knows why. If we punish everybody for a crime some think they may commit in the future , then we might as well just put the whole nation in jail now and become a prison.
Selling weapons is a livelihood for those dealers . There is no monetary benefit to selling guns illegally at a retail store or gun show. Its just blaming people that "like guns" because they "like guns" and there's no reality to it. That's just politics here.
I dont see allot of these ignorant perceptions t home in Germany but some Germans that feel the need to blame America for every little thing do have them. Other nations though are just are bigoted and seething with hatred for 300 million Americans they really know very little about. You'd we would have learned to shed such prejudices.
The only logical explanation for foreign perceptions on this or most other American matters I can see, is that nations government and/or media is enabling prejudices that already did exist in these nations, but should have been eradicated long ago.
As far "Insane" people, they are health care problem not a gun problem. A very difficult balance must be struck of properly caring for them while preserving their rights as humans as well. The political climate in America is so poor that any laws coming from politicians are going to only cause more problems. Politics is so divisive and so poisoned with corruption in American it may be that the only solution is to split the two opposing sides into their own nation. Yes it really is that bad
Today some foolish people think we know far more then we really do about the human brain. The reality is some people go insane at the drop of a hat and nobody knows why. If we punish everybody for a crime some think they may commit in the future , then we might as well just put the whole nation in jail now and become a prison.
Selling weapons is a livelihood for those dealers . There is no monetary benefit to selling guns illegally at a retail store or gun show. Its just blaming people that "like guns" because they "like guns" and there's no reality to it. That's just politics here.
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+supergrover6868 Did you read the
article I posted? There certainly is a monetary reason that dealers would sell
guns illegally. They make money selling guns illegally that's why the do it, I
sure hope they don't do it for "kicks". This is a qoute from that one
article previously posted "ATF officials say that only about 8% of the
nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used
in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of
rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking
down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF". So
basically the majority of guns used in illegal activity come from 8% of gun
dealers. That seems like a pretty convenient coincident to me....
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It
doesn't make any logical sense. How long would a racial minority last inside
some NRA convention like gunshow? Nobody's going t sell to them there, they'd
never make it through the door in most of those towns. Further a gun goes
missing from FFL inventory and they get cited and fined. IN fact in my state
the VA tech shooter bought a gun legally. That store owner was prosecuted and
fined and did one year in prison and he broke no law. You wont make any money
selling something that way. But they are are called the criminals while the
real criminal smugglers are ignored by leftists politicians.
That's the media and politics here in this nation. They can push a lie until people believe it as truth. And that's even easier when its what people want to believe in the first place. Leftists in this nation and most people abroad want to believe that some "redneck" is the problem because they "like" guns. For example California has been known for some of the stricter state laws for 25+ years, yet in minority gangs in Oakland gunfights on the streets in broad daylight occur almost daily. These gangsters dont have the money or the ability(profiling by cops)) to drive to Nevada or new mexico or Arizona and pay for gas lodging, and astronomical prices of retail guns on top of buying from a person that most likely wouldn't walk across the street to piss on them if they were on fire let alone sell them a gun.
These illegal weapons come from the porous borders with Mexico.
That's the media and politics here in this nation. They can push a lie until people believe it as truth. And that's even easier when its what people want to believe in the first place. Leftists in this nation and most people abroad want to believe that some "redneck" is the problem because they "like" guns. For example California has been known for some of the stricter state laws for 25+ years, yet in minority gangs in Oakland gunfights on the streets in broad daylight occur almost daily. These gangsters dont have the money or the ability(profiling by cops)) to drive to Nevada or new mexico or Arizona and pay for gas lodging, and astronomical prices of retail guns on top of buying from a person that most likely wouldn't walk across the street to piss on them if they were on fire let alone sell them a gun.
These illegal weapons come from the porous borders with Mexico.
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+supergrover6868 From what I could
find that gun dealer sold weapons used in two other mass shootings and he was
never fined or charged with a crime. He was however under investigation for fraud
for not fulfilling orders that were placed by customers and closing his website
under suspicious circumstances. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/20/gun-seller-to-va-tech-shooter-shuts-down/
As far as gun smuggling goes, I believe you have it backwards... Mexico has banned firearms the vast majority of weapons used in crimes come from the US not the other way around. Smugglers traffic firearms North to South not South to North. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/20/gun-seller-to-va-tech-shooter-shuts-down/
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/12/nation/la-na-ff-gun-trafficking-20130713
These firearms are smuggled from the US to Mexico in some pretty astonishing numbers. This is clearly very organized and one of the above articles mentions that most are purchased legally and then smuggled out of the US.
As far as gun smuggling goes, I believe you have it backwards... Mexico has banned firearms the vast majority of weapons used in crimes come from the US not the other way around. Smugglers traffic firearms North to South not South to North. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/20/gun-seller-to-va-tech-shooter-shuts-down/
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/12/nation/la-na-ff-gun-trafficking-20130713
These firearms are smuggled from the US to Mexico in some pretty astonishing numbers. This is clearly very organized and one of the above articles mentions that most are purchased legally and then smuggled out of the US.
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1
.He
was hauled out of that place the minute he was even associates with the VA
shooting. That guy was in Green Bay, Not Madison as well. But far be for the
left to let little details get in the way of a good lie. He also sold over the
internet. Which is asinine. But anything that gets in the way of commerce wont
be stymied by law.
This will never get solved because people insist in painting innocent people as criminals and ignore real criminals and the Anti freedom tyrants think I will lose a gun in this mess I wont. Very few will, but not because the government won't try.unregistered weapons bought from criminals, the real problem, wont be addressed. I can get any weapon full auto, whatever class, cheaper from those smugglers.
This will never get solved because people insist in painting innocent people as criminals and ignore real criminals and the Anti freedom tyrants think I will lose a gun in this mess I wont. Very few will, but not because the government won't try.unregistered weapons bought from criminals, the real problem, wont be addressed. I can get any weapon full auto, whatever class, cheaper from those smugglers.
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+supergrover6868 Do you have any
evidence that he was "hauled out of that place"? The Washington Times
and the LA Times are pretty reliable sources as far as reporting goes. Him
selling over the internet is "asinine" according to you, is that
because you cannot buy firearms over the inter webs? Because I assure you that
you can in fact purchase firearms over the internet. I am not sure who is
innocent and being painted as a criminal per your reference. I would not
recommend you obtain any weapons of "whatever class" illegally from
smugglers. Particularly because I just informed you that most those firearms
are smuggled from the US to Mexico.
So you would need to go to Mexico, find most likely a cartel contact, and then convince them that you as a Virginian want to buy a weapon from them and then figure out a way to smuggler it back from Mexico. Let me tell you this little thing called September the 11th, 2001. Border security changed for the better and good luck explaining yourself to the Department of Homeland security upon re-entry…that is if you make it out of you meeting with your cartel contact, from what I understand they are pretty nice people and there should not be any issues for you.
So you would need to go to Mexico, find most likely a cartel contact, and then convince them that you as a Virginian want to buy a weapon from them and then figure out a way to smuggler it back from Mexico. Let me tell you this little thing called September the 11th, 2001. Border security changed for the better and good luck explaining yourself to the Department of Homeland security upon re-entry…that is if you make it out of you meeting with your cartel contact, from what I understand they are pretty nice people and there should not be any issues for you.
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Being
that I live in this state I recall the issue quite well. I get called a lair
allot so no skin off my back but nonetheless media in this coutnry is far from
trustworthy on any matter.
He did sell guns online. I dont like online sales at all and want it banned . That said you aren't getting the guns like its E-bay. You still must go to local registered FFL to pick up the purchase and as is indicated in the story of this guy you will get in losts of trouble. There was some talk about other things involved in other shooting, they were not guns. While that may seem minor to some it is one example of how deceitful the media is. They headline that he was involved with other shootings as if he sold guns to several crazies. Further example of media deceit is the idea this is common thing it is not.
Don't take this as defense of the guy. He doesn't deserve an ounce of sympathy but he also was no criminal kingpin either. The ATF who is quick to deflect blame in all matters is as much to blame for not doing more earlier with this guy.
As tragic as these events are, what is even more tragic is that they receive massive media attention, while the daily killings and crime in this nation receives virtualy none at the national level. IRRC it was Stalin who said something like "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." Very much the case in crime. This is one of the problems with discussing this with people. Their origins, personal life experiences and geographical positions color their outlook. Just off the top of my head, Ill choose Vale, Colorado vs Harlem, New York as an example. Tow places that could not be more different in demographics, economic affluence and crime potential. Somebody in vale can be concerted about crime, read about crime and all its contributing factors, but until they actually live in Harlem and experience it on a day to day basis, they can fully comprehend it.
Not to turn this into a personal pitty party but fact is my financial bottom line has been dropping rapidly over the last 10 years. I know I am far from alone on that matter. But it has illuminated things on this issue for me. I have gone from living in one of the top 10 most affluent communities in my state to moving from less and less good communities for a variety of reason mostly due to the drop in income. Where i am now is by far the worst. Gun shots are commonplace and the drug dealers are quite brazen. People NEXT door have been attacked and killed. Going outside is dangerous and after dark is almost always potential life threatening.. Thugs rule the streets. This is why many want a gun in case these gangsters or the addicts the peddle to attempt to harm or rob us.
Why not leave it to the police? Because police here are not much help for a long list of reasons.
1. Very lax requirements to become an officer: It takes little education and training to become an officer in allot places. Here 2 years at some of the worst community colleges is all that is required. They get abysmal psychological training, and even worse almost no psychological screening. Many police openly state they joined the force for the thrill of power over others. There are good ones of course, but there are far too many bad ones.
2. Politics: Politics effect police in a variety of ways. For example, A sheriff explained to a class I attended that political pressure from civilian leaders has pushed them into committing the crime of entrapment to get drunk drivers off the street. In another example the Sheriff's Dept that instructor worked for has no become a force for hire for municipalities in that county that wish to save money by not hiring a local police force for there municipality. This example alone could probably be a conversation in of itself. Sufficient to say it has degraded the ability to protect citizens in these municipalities quite a bit. Another example is that when politicians who run on a platform of low taxes are elected they quickly find that a great way to make up for the lost revenue is to create more laws that incur monetary penalties for petty things like a broken headlamp on a car, for example. This breeds animosity and detracts police for their intend role as protectors of innocent life
3. Prejudices: The lack of psych screening also has led to police that can be vehemently racists or will have vendettas against certain demographic groups, based on political outlook or other personal prejudices.
4. Federal laws: The creation of the Patriot Act and other laws of a similar vein have given police authority they were never meant to have. Mix this with the realer mentioned issues and you have police that are thugs as opposed to saviors.
So when you year a gun advocate make a vague reference to police not being of help this is some of the detail behind that.
Then there is response time. Even good police with good intentions cannot respond to a crime in progress in time to have an effect. In rural areas it because of the amount of land they have to cover to get there and because they are often small forces with little manpower. While in urban areas they are overwhelmed by the sheer number of crimes committed and also hindered by the population density and the inability to navigate the worst infrastructure in the civilized world. That's right you read that correctly. People can die in America because Police and Paramedics are stuck in traffic.
This is only some of the issues invoked and I have only briefly touched on them.
He did sell guns online. I dont like online sales at all and want it banned . That said you aren't getting the guns like its E-bay. You still must go to local registered FFL to pick up the purchase and as is indicated in the story of this guy you will get in losts of trouble. There was some talk about other things involved in other shooting, they were not guns. While that may seem minor to some it is one example of how deceitful the media is. They headline that he was involved with other shootings as if he sold guns to several crazies. Further example of media deceit is the idea this is common thing it is not.
Don't take this as defense of the guy. He doesn't deserve an ounce of sympathy but he also was no criminal kingpin either. The ATF who is quick to deflect blame in all matters is as much to blame for not doing more earlier with this guy.
As tragic as these events are, what is even more tragic is that they receive massive media attention, while the daily killings and crime in this nation receives virtualy none at the national level. IRRC it was Stalin who said something like "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." Very much the case in crime. This is one of the problems with discussing this with people. Their origins, personal life experiences and geographical positions color their outlook. Just off the top of my head, Ill choose Vale, Colorado vs Harlem, New York as an example. Tow places that could not be more different in demographics, economic affluence and crime potential. Somebody in vale can be concerted about crime, read about crime and all its contributing factors, but until they actually live in Harlem and experience it on a day to day basis, they can fully comprehend it.
Not to turn this into a personal pitty party but fact is my financial bottom line has been dropping rapidly over the last 10 years. I know I am far from alone on that matter. But it has illuminated things on this issue for me. I have gone from living in one of the top 10 most affluent communities in my state to moving from less and less good communities for a variety of reason mostly due to the drop in income. Where i am now is by far the worst. Gun shots are commonplace and the drug dealers are quite brazen. People NEXT door have been attacked and killed. Going outside is dangerous and after dark is almost always potential life threatening.. Thugs rule the streets. This is why many want a gun in case these gangsters or the addicts the peddle to attempt to harm or rob us.
Why not leave it to the police? Because police here are not much help for a long list of reasons.
1. Very lax requirements to become an officer: It takes little education and training to become an officer in allot places. Here 2 years at some of the worst community colleges is all that is required. They get abysmal psychological training, and even worse almost no psychological screening. Many police openly state they joined the force for the thrill of power over others. There are good ones of course, but there are far too many bad ones.
2. Politics: Politics effect police in a variety of ways. For example, A sheriff explained to a class I attended that political pressure from civilian leaders has pushed them into committing the crime of entrapment to get drunk drivers off the street. In another example the Sheriff's Dept that instructor worked for has no become a force for hire for municipalities in that county that wish to save money by not hiring a local police force for there municipality. This example alone could probably be a conversation in of itself. Sufficient to say it has degraded the ability to protect citizens in these municipalities quite a bit. Another example is that when politicians who run on a platform of low taxes are elected they quickly find that a great way to make up for the lost revenue is to create more laws that incur monetary penalties for petty things like a broken headlamp on a car, for example. This breeds animosity and detracts police for their intend role as protectors of innocent life
3. Prejudices: The lack of psych screening also has led to police that can be vehemently racists or will have vendettas against certain demographic groups, based on political outlook or other personal prejudices.
4. Federal laws: The creation of the Patriot Act and other laws of a similar vein have given police authority they were never meant to have. Mix this with the realer mentioned issues and you have police that are thugs as opposed to saviors.
So when you year a gun advocate make a vague reference to police not being of help this is some of the detail behind that.
Then there is response time. Even good police with good intentions cannot respond to a crime in progress in time to have an effect. In rural areas it because of the amount of land they have to cover to get there and because they are often small forces with little manpower. While in urban areas they are overwhelmed by the sheer number of crimes committed and also hindered by the population density and the inability to navigate the worst infrastructure in the civilized world. That's right you read that correctly. People can die in America because Police and Paramedics are stuck in traffic.
This is only some of the issues invoked and I have only briefly touched on them.
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+supergrover6868 You deny more than
you lie !!
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+supergrover6868
Dude, Google: US media can legally lie. It's true, they really can. Everyone thinks the NRA is the powerhouse lobbyist group in this country. Not even close. Google it and see who made it possible for the media to legally lie to us. The mainstream media in this country is bought and paid for. They aren't required to report the truth and face no consequences for knowingly giving false newscast or lying to us. They've been doing it since dubya was in office.
Dude, Google: US media can legally lie. It's true, they really can. Everyone thinks the NRA is the powerhouse lobbyist group in this country. Not even close. Google it and see who made it possible for the media to legally lie to us. The mainstream media in this country is bought and paid for. They aren't required to report the truth and face no consequences for knowingly giving false newscast or lying to us. They've been doing it since dubya was in office.
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+Donut82 "The next biggest source
of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally
licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers." In other words,
from sales where a background check was already required by law but was not
performed. And your solution is additional background checks?
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